2023 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

yahooyahoo said:

3 pitches.  It's a shame because Beltran had a great season in 2006 and a great series against St. Louis.

”Thanks” for giving me the opportunity to relive that…


Another reason why voting needs to be revised.

Dan Gelston, a Philadelphia writer, submitted a ballot with only one selection--Jimmy Rollins.

If he does not think any candidates deserve to get in, then don't submit a ballot.  But to send it in with a sympathy vote for a favored hometown player who clearly does not belong in the HoF hurts everyone else, since the criteria is 75% of the ballots SUBMITTED.   Now, he is but one out of perhaps 380-400 final ballots, but if enough act similarly it will have a significant impact.


In my opinion, without the cheating and steroids scandals they are both borderline HOF candidates.

Add in the cheating scandal for Beltran and steroids for Sheffield, and I think they are both doomed.

We can debate whether they are borderline or not, especially given others who have gotten in who have worse stats and less impact.

As far as "cheating" goes, baseball teams have been stealing signals and cutting corners for time immemorial.  I do not condone it, but why punish Beltran but look the other way on so many others?  Sheffield, as far as I know, was never directly found to be juicing, but even if he was, how about the many many at the same time who likely also juiced but were not called out?  Even with Pete Rose (whom I find to be odious) or Curt Schilling (who I would never invite to have a beer), what has kept them out has nothing to do with their play on the field.

I have come down to the point where these "character" traits should have no impact on whether a player gets in or not.  I would rather they draw lines on quality of play so that the Aparicio's and Roberts's of the world are not let in.


What I find amusing is how they now condone gambling. In between innings they'll say what the odds are of the Mets winning and after the game they'll talk about how much you would have won if you bet on the Mets. If you don't care about gambling and might even have a casino next to the ballpark why not put Shoeless Joe and Rose in the HOF? Unless being an a__hole and bouncing the ball on the turf is grounds for a permanent ban. 

Personally I felt Schilling was on the cusp. I wouldn't vote for him. And that was ketchup.  


mfpark said:

In my opinion, without the cheating and steroids scandals they are both borderline HOF candidates.

Add in the cheating scandal for Beltran and steroids for Sheffield, and I think they are both doomed.

We can debate whether they are borderline or not, especially given others who have gotten in who have worse stats and less impact.

As far as "cheating" goes, baseball teams have been stealing signals and cutting corners for time immemorial.  I do not condone it, but why punish Beltran but look the other way on so many others?  Sheffield, as far as I know, was never directly found to be juicing, but even if he was, how about the many many at the same time who likely also juiced but were not called out?  Even with Pete Rose (whom I find to be odious) or Curt Schilling (who I would never invite to have a beer), what has kept them out has nothing to do with their play on the field.

I have come down to the point where these "character" traits should have no impact on whether a player gets in or not.  I would rather they draw lines on quality of play so that the Aparicio's and Roberts's of the world are not let in.

I'm with you on that, although IMHO Rose would need to be reinstated by MLB before being voted into the HoF. I don't see why they should induct someone who's under a lifetime ban. Schilling is a tough one. If I'm being honest, if he had a public image like Tom Glavine or Fernando Valenzuela I'd probably vote for him if I was an elector. But he's such a terrible person in public, that he makes it hard. I'd probably give Schilling  my vote, and then boycott his induction speech.


mfpark said:

Even with Pete Rose (whom I find to be odious) or Curt Schilling (who I would never invite to have a beer), what has kept them out has nothing to do with their play on the field.

I had a pretty good view of most of Schilling’s career. I never thought he was a Hall of Famer, even before his character became such a prominent issue.

I mean, would a Hall of Famer in his prime get only Omar Daal, Vicente Padilla, Travis Lee and Nelson Figueroa in a trade?


jfinnegan said:

What I find amusing is how they now condone gambling.

The Black Sox’ mistake was not giving Comiskey a cut.


DaveSchmidt said:

jfinnegan said:

What I find amusing is how they now condone gambling.

The Black Sox’ mistake was not giving Comiskey a cut.

Now that there is legalized online sports betting willing to pay the MLB millions to advertise, it's all good. question


yahooyahoo said:

Now that there is legalized online sports betting willing to pay the MLB millions to advertise, it's all good.
question

They're going to have to find somebody else to advertise on the umps' outfits now that FTX is gone. Maybe fanduel.


jfinnegan said:

yahooyahoo said:

Now that there is legalized online sports betting willing to pay the MLB millions to advertise, it's all good.
question

They're going to have to find somebody else to advertise on the umps' outfits now that FTX is gone. Maybe fanduel.

when I first saw that FTX sponsorship, I had an uneasy feeling about how it would turn out.


With 14% of estimated votes made public, both Rolen and Helton are at 78% (43 out of 55 votes).

But when you look at the individual votes, it is not good news for Rolen.  So far he has picked up only one new voter over last year, when he was at 63%.  Unless he starts picking up new voters from the late reporters/non-disclosers it looks like he will fall short again.

Helton, on the other hand, has picked up 10 new voters this year so far.  Last year he was at 52%.  Wagner is at 69%, but has picked up 12 new voters (and has lost one)--last year he was at 51%.

Kent (47%), Jones (66%), and Sheffield (56%) all have a fair number of new voters, but are far enough behind that they will not get to 75% this year (or probably any year).  Beltran, in his first year, is tied with ARod at 49%.

Personally, I go back and forth on Rolen.  He was damned good, but was he really great?  Kent is in the same boat for me.  I guess I can see both getting in, and also see both coming up short.  The more I think about Helton, the more I think he should not get in.  His non-Coors stats were pretty pedestrian.  Wagner was pretty dominant, although in the post-season he was meh.  But I can also see him getting in, likely after the veterans committee elects him--doubt he will hit 75% of BBWAA voters.

Beltran belongs, even with the whole Astros garbage can thing.  ARod and Manny also belong, even with the steroids banishments.  


mfpark said:

The more I think about Helton, the more I think he should not get in.  His non-Coors stats were pretty pedestrian.   

Helton’s ballpark-adjusted wRC+ of 132 is very similar to McGriff’s 134. Their career fWAR is all but indistinguishable, too: 54.9 for Helton and 56.9 for McGriff.


DaveSchmidt said:

Helton’s ballpark-adjusted wRC+ of 132 is very similar to McGriff’s 134. Their career fWAR is all but indistinguishable, too: 54.9 for Helton and 56.9 for McGriff.

Ok, I am not totally sold on the Sabermatics arguments as overshadowing the more standard stats, but I certainly see your point here.  OTOH, his bWAR is 4.5/162 games average, which is pretty good but is it HOF level?  His OPS+ on the road was 0.855 vs 1.048 at Coors, so there is that.  Although one of his GMs argued that having to adjust to regular atmospheric pressure was as much a hindrance on the road as playing at Coors was a benefit--pretty specious reasoning to me.

Yes, I get it that he has a better WAR than Killebrew, Perez, Hodges, and Stargell, but he also did not dominate his league the way those guys did (well, except Hodges, who I really like but who I think would not be in other than he was a really good guy and he took the Mets to the title).  Helton had five or so really great years, but then he was injured and his numbers fell off a lot.

I certainly see why folks would vote him in, just for me he is on the downside of the bubble.


With 17.5% of the votes known, Rolen is still rollin' at 79.7%, with 4 new votes over last year.

Helton is at 78% and has 11 new votes.  He may just get in.

Wagner at 69.6 has picked up a net 13 new votes, and if this continues he may squeak in.

Jones at 68% has picked up a net 11 new votes, very strong for his 6th year.

Sheffield has picked up 13 net new votes, at 65%.  Intriguing given his steroid taint.  ARoid and Ramirez who were both caught remain below 50%.

Kent has 13 new votes also but is below 50% overall.


We are at 25% of votes disclosed, and Helton and Rolen are at or above 80%.

Helton has picked up 13 new voters.  Rolen 4.

Interestingly, Sheffield is at 69% with 16 new voters out of 86 so far.

Wagner is at 70% with 14 new voters, and Jones is at 69% with 15 new voters.

If there is a surge we could see 5 new members, including one with the steroid taint.


It is time for that talk again about getting rid of the way players are inducted into the HOF.

Case in point:  Carlos Beltran.  One of the most solid switch hitters of all time.  2700 hits, 560 doubles, 430 homers, 300 SB and almost 1600 RBIs.  And yet, with one third of the likely votes known, just over 50% of the writers think he belongs in the Hall of Fame.

Some say, "Hey, he belongs, but is not a first round guy."  What the hell is that supposed to mean?  Is this like purgatory where you have to have your wings singed a bit before getting to the big show?  Is he somehow going to have a better year at the plate next year that will change their minds?  Will he age like a fine steak or bottle of wine?  What a crock of crap.  Either he belongs in the HOF or he doesn't.  Waiting a year or 10 is not a criteria.

Others point to the garbage can fiasco.  So, does this mean his HOF numbers for all the years up to that point are overpowered by that one thing?  Not to mention the whole controversy over whether the Astros were unique in stealing signs (hint, they definitely were not, they just got caught). 

The guy belongs purely based on the numbers, and those voters who are denying him for the above two reasons are irrational.

And another thing--how the heck can someone vote for a player one year, and then not vote for them the next year, especially when they are not registering 10 votes that second year?  Did a guy who has been retired at least 6 years suddenly have a few bad seasons that took him from a Hall of Famer to an also-ran?  Purely ridiculous.


36% of ballots are known.  

Helton and Rollen are over 80%.

Wagner (73%), Jones (71.6%) and Sheffield (68.1%) are inching towards the magic 75% level.


As the years pass by, the Baseball HOF takes on less significance for me as a fan.  The steroid era ruined a lot of things, including the HOF.  In my opinion, Bud Selig becoming commissioner is one of the worst decisions ever made in MLB history.  He should be kicked out of the HOF.


With 44% of the votes known, Helton (79.8%) and Rolen (80.3%) are in strong shape.

Wagner (73.4%) is inching ever so close.  My guess is he gets in.

Andruw Jones at 69% is a bit surprising to me in that he was only at 41% last year.  Quite a jump.  He was dominant for a period of time but not sure he is HOF caliber.  As always, I wonder why supposedly knowledgeable voters decide that a player years removed from his playing days suddenly looks HOF worthy (or falls off their ballot).

Following the very strange logic of some voters, Beltran will likely get in next year or the year after, once his wings have been sufficiently singed in HOF Purgatory, I guess.  He is at 56% in his first year.

Sheffield at 63.6% picked up a lot of new support, up from 40.6% in 2022.  But he is in his 9th year on the ballot, and likely will wind up with Bonds and Clemens and ARod (and Manny and Palmeiro) to wait for the Veterans' Committee to consider the steroid era impact--or for the HOF to appoint a committee to once and for all decide that steroid era players deserve to be in.


mfpark said:

As always, I wonder why supposedly knowledgeable voters decide that a player years removed from his playing days suddenly looks HOF worthy (or falls off their ballot).

If voters remain open to deliberation and changing their mind, who am I to begrudge them?


DaveSchmidt said:

If voters remain open to deliberation and changing their mind, who am I to begrudge them?

I would feel a lot better about it if one of the requirements for voting was that each voter provide a detailed explanation for why they voted as they did.


I still can't figure out why Ortiz is in and the rest of the steroids tainted guys aren't. I guess it pays to be a good guy. 


jfinnegan said:

I still can't figure out why Ortiz is in and the rest of the steroids tainted guys aren't. I guess it pays to be a good guy. 

We all know the reason--he is a good quote and is always happily available to the press, even when they are questioning him about steroids.  Most of the other steroids-associated guys were anywhere from terse to grumpy with the press a lot of the time, or tested positive after a more formal testing regimen was in place (Manny and ARoid, for example).


Interesting--with just under 50% of the votes revealed, Helton now has more votes than Rolen, 79.4% to 78.9%  Wagner remains just under at 73.3%.  

The actual vote totals will be released Tuesday at 6 PM by the Hall.


I never thought of Andruw Jones as a Hall of Fame player.  He was really good for about 10 years, but he got less than 2000 hits and his BA is very average.  He's got a good lifetime WAR of 62.7 (161st all-time) and really good power (top 50 all-time for HR).

But as an outfielder, I don't think his numbers rise to HOF level.


yahooyahoo said:

I never though of Andruw Jones as a Hall of Fame player.  He was really good for about 10 years, but he got less than 2000 hits and his BA is very average.  He's got a good lifetime WAR of 62.7 (161st all-time) and really good power (top 50 all-time for HR).

But as an outfielder, I don't think his numbers rise to HOF level.

He also was a lights-out fielder in his prime.  But I agree with you that his was not a HOF caliber career.  He was very good for a period of time, but injuries took their toll.

If I had a vote this year I would be voting for:

Beltran, Manny, Arod, Sheffield, and Wagner for sure.

I would think long and hard on Helton, Rolen, and Kent.

I am not big on WAR and other Sabermatic-type measures for determining HOF qualification--although I do like playing around with them for fun sometimes.  Call me old school on that one.  And I obviously do not think steroids should be a voting issue any more than greenies were in prior decades.  


If they're taking steroids into account Beltran is the only one I would vote for. 

I thought Rolen was very good, but he was never the guy I was most afraid of facing on the Cards. I mean he couldn't even homer off Ollie Perez. 

I saw Beltran and Pedro Martinez at Churrascaria Plataforma. It was after Wagner had blown a save for Pedro earlier that afternoon. You never would have known Pedro had the game blown for him earlier. I turned around and he was standing behind me. I was shocked and just said,"Pedro!" He smiled and shook my hand. He and Beltran sat at different tables with their families. Beltran ran out after he ate. Pedro got up, walked into the corner and signed for people and took pics. Those were good Mets teams. 


Rolen is the only player elected for 2023.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/35519398/eight-gold-glove-3b-scott-rolen-makes-baseball-hall-fame

Scott Rolen has been elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame, sneaking over the threshold by the narrowest of margins.

Rolen, one of the game's great third basemen, was named on 76.3% of ballots cast in his sixth year of eligibility to earn enshrinement. Just missing was former Rockies first baseman Todd Helton, who received support on 72.2% of ballots in his fifth try at election.

None of the other 27 players listed on the 2023 Hall ballot cleared the 75 percent minimum for election, though there were a couple of near-misses. The results of the balloting were revealed Tuesday during a broadcast on MLB.com.



Hall of Fame Voting

Some 136 ballots were cast through the BBWAA for this year's Hall of Fame class. The average ballot contained 5.86 names (down from 7.11 last year), with 13.9% of the voters using all 10 slots (down from 33.8%). 75% was needed for election. A look at the players with at least 10% of the vote:

PLAYERVOTESPCT.
Scott Rolen29776.3
Todd Helton28172.2
Billy Wagner26568.1
Andruw Jones22658.1
Gary Sheffield21455.0
Carlos Beltrán18146.5
Jeff Kent18146.5
Alex Rodríguez13935.7
Manny Ramírez12933.2
Omar Vizquel7619.5
Andy Pettitte6617.0
Bobby Abreu6015.4
Jimmy Rollins5012.9
Mark Buehrle4210.8
Francisco Rodríguez4210.8

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/35519398/eight-gold-glove-3b-scott-rolen-makes-baseball-hall-fame


Thanks for posting this Yahooyahoo.  

Some closing thoughts on this year's voting:

1.  Given how strong Helton was doing with the votes that were public before yesterday, he clearly fell off sharply with the mostly older voters who tend to not reveal their votes before the final reveal.  Still, he was only 11 votes short of getting in, and will get in sometime in the next few years.  He has 5 more years of eligibility.

2.  Wagner may wind up being one of those guys who gets oh-so-close but has to wait for the Veteran's Committee to get him in--which is also a crap-shoot.  He only has two more years of eligibility left.

3.  Sheffield tailed off from the publicly revealed votes, and with one year left he is not getting in.  He did pick up a lot more support than in past years, but the unproven steroids taint is too strong, especially for the older crowd.

4. I cannot for the life of me understand why Torii Hunter almost fell below 5% to be eliminated from future ballots.  Same for why Jeff Kent got so little support--he is now off the ballot after 10 whiffs.  Pretty good cases can be made for each of them.  Kent has more home runs than any other second baseman in history, and anchored some very good teams.  Hunter had something like 2500 hits and 350 dingers and played a great outfield.  I would think they would get a lot more consideration from the voters.

5.  Beltran will get in sooner than later.  I can see Beltre (1st year), Beltran, Helton, and perhaps Wagner getting in next year.  Mauer (1st year) will get votes but is not getting in next year.  Andruw Jones will remain on the bubble, probably forever.


In order to add a comment – you must Join this community – Click here to do so.